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Michael Levin's avatar

Thanks Matt - really enjoyed our discussion! Just one comment:

> is a system engineered from the outside, with the shape of its parts and the goal it is intended to achieve being provided by an external designer; the latter, an organism, in contrast, is a system where the parts produce themselves for the sake of the whole to which they belong, with no external designer.

First (more mundane): the field of evolutionary robotics and artificial life has already begun giving us machines that are designed by other machines, by evolutionary processes, or even by surprising, emergent self-assembly, and they do many things we did not intend them to do or know they were going to do (emergent goals). So it's going to be increasingly hard to use this criterion in the future. But (more weird), I have a deeper claim to make. We (here) are, I guess, in agreement that the goals of an organism are not entirely set by the rules of biochemistry. I think the same is true of things we don't call organisms - their goals are only partially set by us (just like ours are partially set by our environment, parents, peers, society, evolution, etc.). They too are constrained by their materials and the algorithm we try to make them follow, but their goals and the patterns that animate them are not entirely circumscribed by those any more than ours are by our materials and the behavioral programming we receive from the moment we're born. I think we have to take the organicist story seriously and pursue it to its end - if we, as biological, socially-programmed systems nevertheless have agency and our own goals, then so do non-protenaceous systems programmed by different means. While the things we call "alive" are particularly good at enabling the ingression of rich patterns of form and behavior, it's universal - the only question is what kind and how much of these show up in any physical embodiment. The real question, once cyborgs and every possible combination of evolved and engineered materials walk the Earth with us, is not going to be "what are you made of" or "how did you get here", but "how interesting are the patterns that you can receive". I take seriously the idea that the physical objects (whether produced by the vagaries of evolution's meanderings or by thoughtful work of other minds) are mostly pointers into the space of forms of wide degree of agency, and we should be very careful not to make assumptions about what kind of objects those forms can choose to animate. We see this in extremely minimal systems already (https://thoughtforms.life/what-do-algorithms-want-a-new-paper-on-the-emergence-of-surprising-behavior-in-the-most-unexpected-places/). And here's a less scientific way of putting it: https://thoughtforms.life/some-free-verse-on-the-topic-of-diverse-intelligence/

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Dr. Bruce Damer's avatar

Wonderful piece Matt!

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