I enjoyed my dialogue with Keith Frankish this morning. Thanks is due to Justin for getting us together. I’d say we had a fascinating conversation exploring process-relational metaphysics and my Whiteheadian form of panpsychism, Keith’s version of illusionism, and how these positions bear on the nature of consciousness and meaning.
Keith sent me a few articles to read in advance of our conversation, including this magazine article introducing the illusionist alternative to what he calls the “Cartesian sideshow.”
The good news is that we both want to do away with the idea of Cartesian mental representations and private qualia. I think the concept of “qualia” concedes way too much to the bifurcated image of nature underlying contemporary physicalism.
Keith began our dialogue by asking me to lay out what I think the main differences are between our perspectives. I emphasized what we have in common: we both agree consciousness should not be defined as private, intrinsic, non-relational, and non-functional.
Drawing on Whitehead’s cosmological scheme, I offered a condensed introduction to his dipolar ontology of “actual occasions of experience”—basic events integrating physical (efficient causality) and mental (potentiality) aspects.
I also introduced his key concepts of prehension (relational feelings between entities, actual and potential) and concrescence (the experiential integration of real potentialities into actual unity), though I admit much could not be adequately unpacked in our short conversation. Anyone seeking a fuller introduction to these concepts can watch my diagrammatic explanation of prehension and concrescence in this lecture (timestamped):
I argued that a degree of agency and something analogous to “decision” are basic ingredients in all physical processes. Keith remained unhappy with my attribution of what he believes are exclusively human or at least biological concepts like agency and decision to inanimate matter at micro- or astro-physical levels. For him, what we perceive as “consciousness” is a narrative construct or “user illusion” (Dennett) generated by subpersonal brain activity. He advocates for a purely functionalist, third-person description of cognition. Notions like agency or purpose only gain coherence after living, self-replicating systems have emerged.
He then drew on W. Sellars’ distinction between the “manifest image” (our everyday perception of the world) and the “scientific image” (a theoretical account stripped of human-centric biases). He emphasized the importance of reconciling these perspectives without granting the manifest image ontological primacy.
Despite important disagreements about fundamental issues, we both agree that experience is not some sort of isolated pure phenomenality but emerges relationally and evolves through dynamic transactions. We both reject sharp ontological boundaries (e.g., between life and non-life, conscious and non-conscious systems). I tried to leverage this agreement to insist on a continuum of agency and experience from atoms to animals to human beings. All self-producing systems at whatever scale are enduring organisms (ie, more-or-less unified processes of regeneration preserving pattern across time and space), and are themselves composed of actual occasions of experience whose job (or joy) is the integration of the actualized past with all that remains possible moment by moment (here I am carrying forward Whitehead’s distinction between societies or historical routes and actual occasions). Whitehead’s process of integration or concrescence can be understood in topological terms as the atomization of the continuum.
In response to Keith’s characterization of science as objective and neutral, I emphasized the role of cultural and evolutionary scaffolding in shaping human cognition. I referenced Merlin Donald’s model of cognitive evolution (from mimetic to narrative to theoretical stages) as evidence that science remains deeply rooted in human experience. I first learned of Donald’s ideas in Robert Bellah’s book Religion in Human Evolution (you can read my chapter comparing Bellah and Whitehead here).
I just started reading Whitehead's "Science and the Modern World" this week after someone suggested his views are similar to mine. That does seem to be the case. It's astonishing it took me this long to read him. I agree with you (and Whitehead, maybe?) about finding this notion of qualia a bit problematic, although maybe for different reasons. I don't take experience to be fundamentally private or intrinsic either, although it certainly can be. But to characterize it that way is a bit misguided. To talk of 'qualia' is to assume we actually experience atomic bits of phenomena, but the notion of 'qualia' rips individual atoms of experience out of the full context, and the full context is what we actually experience. I usually let these things pass when it's not clear to me the 'atomic' characterization of phenomena is really at issue.
Anyway.
@14:20 Keith says in the video: "It seems to me you only get things like purpose when you get teleology...trying to project that beyond the organic level into inanimate matter...I can't de-psychologize those notions."
After picking my jaw up off the floor—you ONLY get PURPOSE?—I wanted to jump into the video to explain to him that this 'mere' purpose is precisely what scientific realists assume without realizing it. You see this problem most acutely in biological evolution of course—what is the goal of evolution? Survival, the continuance of life, that is the point. This is taken as a given, almost never made explicit as an assumption. Such teleological presuppositions abound in scientific theories. Without an understanding of the purpose of the whole, there would be no way to discern any functional part whatsoever. If you want to know what a car engine does, what its components are good for, you need to know what a car is for, what it's purpose is. In theories of mind, experience must be taken as a given. Otherwise what would neural correlates of consciousness be correlated to? Imagine how much clearer and more robust a theory would be if it faced these presuppositions head on!
It seems to me Keith's reaction is based on an old-school materialist's intuition. It's nice that at least he was honest about it. He seems like a very nice guy...maybe you can get him to realize he's still thinking in material terms when he talks of 'inanimate matter'. After all, he must know physicalist functionalism doesn't deal in matter (supposedly). I wonder what you think, do you think Whitehead would call Keith's position "misplaced concreteness"? Consider Keith's blog post about rainbows—he calls them 'illusions'. But no one ever thought a rainbow was solid!:
https://www.keithfrankish.com/blog/like-a-rainbow/
Hi Matt,
My first reaction yesterday to this conversation was surprise that you would be interested and able to have a discussion with someone who holds what I assumed to be a very materialistic view of consciousness. Before watching the video I read the wikipedia page about him where several philosophers are mentioned as "advocates" of his illusionism theory, among whom is, besides Dennett, Jay Garfield, whose wikipedia page I also went to because the blurb mentioned that he is interested in Buddhism. I didn't put any of this together yesterday, but today, out of nowhere, the thought suddenly came to mind that illusionism and Buddhist no-self seem to be related, and indeed, I found that Garfield himself mentions Frankish in his book, "What Does No-Self Really Mean," precisely in this context. So illusionism then does not necessarily mean that consciousness is just a purely "materialistic" epiphenomenon since it is an integral part of a spiritual life, and its existence is imbued with all of that meaning.
Furthermore, I came across today an article that says that certain parts of the brain that are affected by Cotard's Syndrome "form part of what is known as the 'default mode network' – a complex system of activity thought to be vital to core consciousness, and our theory of mind. This network is responsible for our ability to recollect the past, to think about ourselves, to create a sense of self and it allows us to realise that we are the agent responsible for an action" (read://https_www.newscientist.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2Fdn23583-mindscapes-first-interview-with-a-dead-man%2F). It is precisely the default mode network that Buddhist and other Eastern meditations are meant to calm and quiet - in order to get past the ego self to an experience of the no-self!
Complete surrender to an Almighty God would be the Western path to get there (especially once one realizes that He too is an illusion...), but for the most part this is inverted to an ego-identification with the deity that leads to all types of bad things.
In conclusion, illusionism may have ancient roots in various spiritual paths, which is logical because ego-consciousness as we know it today probably only began developing in early ancient times along with early civilization, perhaps the transition from hunter-gathering to agriculture.