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Tina Lee Forsee's avatar

I just started reading Whitehead's "Science and the Modern World" this week after someone suggested his views are similar to mine. That does seem to be the case. It's astonishing it took me this long to read him. I agree with you (and Whitehead, maybe?) about finding this notion of qualia a bit problematic, although maybe for different reasons. I don't take experience to be fundamentally private or intrinsic either, although it certainly can be. But to characterize it that way is a bit misguided. To talk of 'qualia' is to assume we actually experience atomic bits of phenomena, but the notion of 'qualia' rips individual atoms of experience out of the full context, and the full context is what we actually experience. I usually let these things pass when it's not clear to me the 'atomic' characterization of phenomena is really at issue.

Anyway.

@14:20 Keith says in the video: "It seems to me you only get things like purpose when you get teleology...trying to project that beyond the organic level into inanimate matter...I can't de-psychologize those notions."

After picking my jaw up off the floor—you ONLY get PURPOSE?—I wanted to jump into the video to explain to him that this 'mere' purpose is precisely what scientific realists assume without realizing it. You see this problem most acutely in biological evolution of course—what is the goal of evolution? Survival, the continuance of life, that is the point. This is taken as a given, almost never made explicit as an assumption. Such teleological presuppositions abound in scientific theories. Without an understanding of the purpose of the whole, there would be no way to discern any functional part whatsoever. If you want to know what a car engine does, what its components are good for, you need to know what a car is for, what it's purpose is. In theories of mind, experience must be taken as a given. Otherwise what would neural correlates of consciousness be correlated to? Imagine how much clearer and more robust a theory would be if it faced these presuppositions head on!

It seems to me Keith's reaction is based on an old-school materialist's intuition. It's nice that at least he was honest about it. He seems like a very nice guy...maybe you can get him to realize he's still thinking in material terms when he talks of 'inanimate matter'. After all, he must know physicalist functionalism doesn't deal in matter (supposedly). I wonder what you think, do you think Whitehead would call Keith's position "misplaced concreteness"? Consider Keith's blog post about rainbows—he calls them 'illusions'. But no one ever thought a rainbow was solid!:

https://www.keithfrankish.com/blog/like-a-rainbow/

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Josh M.'s avatar

Hi Matt,

My first reaction yesterday to this conversation was surprise that you would be interested and able to have a discussion with someone who holds what I assumed to be a very materialistic view of consciousness. Before watching the video I read the wikipedia page about him where several philosophers are mentioned as "advocates" of his illusionism theory, among whom is, besides Dennett, Jay Garfield, whose wikipedia page I also went to because the blurb mentioned that he is interested in Buddhism. I didn't put any of this together yesterday, but today, out of nowhere, the thought suddenly came to mind that illusionism and Buddhist no-self seem to be related, and indeed, I found that Garfield himself mentions Frankish in his book, "What Does No-Self Really Mean," precisely in this context. So illusionism then does not necessarily mean that consciousness is just a purely "materialistic" epiphenomenon since it is an integral part of a spiritual life, and its existence is imbued with all of that meaning.

Furthermore, I came across today an article that says that certain parts of the brain that are affected by Cotard's Syndrome "form part of what is known as the 'default mode network' – a complex system of activity thought to be vital to core consciousness, and our theory of mind. This network is responsible for our ability to recollect the past, to think about ourselves, to create a sense of self and it allows us to realise that we are the agent responsible for an action" (read://https_www.newscientist.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscientist.com%2Farticle%2Fdn23583-mindscapes-first-interview-with-a-dead-man%2F). It is precisely the default mode network that Buddhist and other Eastern meditations are meant to calm and quiet - in order to get past the ego self to an experience of the no-self!

Complete surrender to an Almighty God would be the Western path to get there (especially once one realizes that He too is an illusion...), but for the most part this is inverted to an ego-identification with the deity that leads to all types of bad things.

In conclusion, illusionism may have ancient roots in various spiritual paths, which is logical because ego-consciousness as we know it today probably only began developing in early ancient times along with early civilization, perhaps the transition from hunter-gathering to agriculture.

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